DATING ENGLISH TINNED TOBACCO: Difference between revisions

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'''''Written by John C. Loring'''''<br>
<center>'''''Written by John C. Loring, 1999.'''''<br>
''Contributed by Yang Forcióri''
''Contributed by Yang Forcióri''</center>




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Tins will also be found with Canadian tax stamps. Unlike the US tax stamp however, these stamps are currently in use. I have not seen enough of Canadian stamps to determine whether over time there have been differences useable for dating purposes.
Tins will also be found with Canadian tax stamps. Unlike the US tax stamp however, these stamps are currently in use. I have not seen enough of Canadian stamps to determine whether over time there have been differences useable for dating purposes.


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Lastly, it is not unusual to find tins which have handwritten dates. Such dates can be quite useful but take care for they can also be quite misleading. Usually these dates are of two sorts, either they represent when someone acquired the tin, first, second or third hand and often well after manufacture, or they can represent someone's guess as to the age of the tin, which guess can often be considerably off.
Lastly, it is not unusual to find tins which have handwritten dates. Such dates can be quite useful but take care for they can also be quite misleading. Usually these dates are of two sorts, either they represent when someone acquired the tin, first, second or third hand and often well after manufacture, or they can represent someone's guess as to the age of the tin, which guess can often be considerably off.


<center>'''Some Specific Brands'''</center>
<span style="font-size:small">
[Please note that in most cases the dates given below are approximate and somewhat speculative. Hopefully response to this article will allow for more definitive dating. The absence of some popular blends from those listed below is simply an indication that at the present time I use the general dating methods set forth above to date those tins as opposed to any special brand specific indications.]
</span>
'''Ashton'''
In the 1990's production of the Ashton branded tobacco blends was shifted to the Continent using exactly the same labels that were used in England. The English made blends, which were blended for Ashton by McConnell, may be distinguished from the Continental made by the 'pop top' tin top. The tin top of the McConnell English made Ashton blends was imprinted with pictorial opening instructions while the Continental made Ashton tin tops are plain.
'''Balkan Sobranie'''
*Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, Sobrainie House appear to date from the 1970's or earlier;
*Tins labled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, 17 Worship Street appear to date to the '70s for a brief time just after 'Sobranie House';
*Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie Limited, Chichester Road appear to date from the late 1970s;
*Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 65 Kingsway appear to date to the early 1980's;
*Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 34 Burlington Arcade appear to date to the 1980's; and
*Tins labeled as manufactured by Sobranie of London, 13 Old Bond Street date to the 1990's.
Balkan Sobranie was imported by James Russell so as discussed earlier the Russell addresses are also useful for dating.  (a Sobranie tin paper with a Russell '56th St' address & a Sobranie '17 Worship St' address has been found in a Sobranie  'Sobranie House' painted knife lid tin).
'''Bell's Three Nuns'''
Bell's Three Nuns tins may be found in five flavors.
*Prior to the 1980's Three Nuns came either in an orange bordered solid brown (or earlier, sold black) 'coin twist' tin or through the 1960's in a 'knife lid' tin or prior to World War II in a hinged rectangular tin.
*In the 1980's the 'coin twist' tin was changed from orange bordered solid brown to an orange bordered brown wood grained and marked Made in Scotland although there are some 50 gram tins without that latter marking.
*In the 1990's production was shifted to Denmark. The Danish production came in both orange bordered solid brown and wood grained tins but all tins regardless of size or color are marked Made in Denmark either on the top or side of the tin top.
'''Dunhill'''
The key year for Dunhill tobacco is 1981 when production of most Dunhill tobacco blends was shifted from Dunhill to Murray in Northern Ireland (at the time both Dunhill and Murray were subsidiaries of the same parent company). While the blends remained of very fine quality, distinct differences were immediately apparent, I suspect from Murray's use of younger tobacco and probably some recipe changes due to the unavailability of some tobacco varieties. The only exception to the Murray transition were the My Mixture blends (other than 965). The My Mixture blends (other than 965), were, (and are) available only from the London Duke Street shop. Those blends apparently continued to be blended in house for some time, and today are produced for the Duke Street shop by a small batch blender in London.
*''''20s - '60s:''' During this period the 'knife lid' was the primary tin style. In the '50s some 'coin twist' tins were introduced with a decade long, transition from the 4 ounce 'knife lid' to a 4 ounce 'coin twist' starting in the early '60s. <span style="font-size:small"> [This decade long 'transition' may be indicative of the extended 'in the tin' aging that Dunhill gave its tobaccos.] </span> These 4 ounce 'coin twists' are often called 'tall boys' because they were the same circumference as the 2 ounce 'coin twist' tins, just twice as high. Not all tins during these five decades were imprinted with the packaging weight but when they were it was only in ounces. Closer dating may generally be arrived at through the royal crest that appears on most tins. A Prince of Wales Crest dates from 1921 to 1936; a George VI Crest with a reference to the King dates from 1936 to 1953; a George VI Crest with no reference to the King dates to 1954; a George VI Crest with reference to the late King dates from 1954 to 1962; and an Elizabeth II Crest dates from 1963 to 1995. In addition tins from the WWII era bore a small reference to war time packaging requirements.
*''''70s:''' 'Coin twist' tins were used exclusively during the '70s in the 2 ounce, 4 ounce 'tall boy', and 8 ounce sizes and as in prior years generally were labeled with words to the effect that the tobacco was been blended 'by Dunhill' in 'England' (or prior to the '70s often 'Great Britain').
*'''Early '80s:''' The last of the 'in house' Dunhill production, ending in 1981, was packaged in 'coin twists' tins with 'painted' labels showing weight in either fractional ounces only, e.g. 1 3/4 or 3 1/2, or in both fractional ounces and grams with, in either case, the country of origin labeled as 'England'. Sometime in 1981 production of standard brands (but other then 965, not the My Mixtures) was taken over by Murray. These tins may be identified by their paper (rather than 'painted') label which, for the first time, generally indicated the country of origin as being the 'United Kingdom' (I have seen a few paper label Murray tins with 'England'). In addition, distinctively, the now 3 1/2 ounce/100 gram 'tall boy' tin style was flattened resulting in the tin having a noticeably larger circumference than its 1 3/4 ounce/50 gram counterpart.
*'''Mid to Late '80s''': Murray changed back to painted labeling within a few years, these tins however, may be easily distinguished from earlier Dunhill production in that the Murray tins uniformly label the country of origin as the 'United Kingdom'.
*''''90s:''' In about 1990 the Murry blended tobacco label was changed to show that it was manufactured under the authority of Dunhill. In 1995 the Elizabeth II Crest was deleted from the tins and 'authority' was changed to 'in association' with Dunhill.
In short (and with some generalization):
'Association' or 'authority' equals Murray / '90s;
'United Kingdom' equals Murray / '80s - '90s;
Paper label 'coin twist' standard blends equals Murray / early '80s;
Fractional or dual weight painted 'coin twists' made in 'England' equal Dunhill/early '80s;
Whole ounces, or tall boy 'coin twists' equals Dunhill / '70s - '60s; and
'Knife-lid' equals Dunhill / '60s or earlier.
'''Rattray'''
More mistakes are made in dating Rattray tobacco tins than with any other brand. The key is to generally disregard the label and look at the tin itself.
Rattray was a Scottish tobacconist who closed up shop in about 1980 but whose highly regarded pipe tobacco blends continue to the present day. Up to about 1970 all Rattray tobacco was blended by Rattray and came in tall thin 4 ounce 'knife lid' (or briefly in the 1960's in 4 ounce 'lever') tins. These tins were all labeled 'Made by Rattray'. <span style="font-size:small"> [For reasons unknown the Highland Targe label has never been imprinted either 'Made by' or 'Made for' and dating of this blend has to be done by the tin top and bottom alone.] </span>It is generally thought that Rattray continued blending all of its blends for another ten years and then, in 1980, turned them over to Robert McConnell, a fine English blender. However, based on a conversation related by Irwin Friedman with a former Rattray employee and which I find, with some modification, collaborated by the packaging, it appears rather that in about 1970 Rattray turned over the blending of some of its blends intended for the United States to McConnell. McConnel labeled the tins it blended 'Made for Rattray'. Rattray continued to blend itself the tins intended for the English and European markets, as well as all the blends of lesser demand, which tins were labeled, as in the past, 'Made by Rattray'.
When Rattray closed its doors in 1980 McConnell took over the blending of all the Rattray labeled tobacco, but did not change the labeling, thus after 1980 some McConnell blended tins were labeled 'Made for Rattray' while others also blended by McConnell were nonetheless labeled 'Made by Rattray'. McConnell blended in England through the 1980s but shifted production to Germany (and later elsewhere) beginning in about 1990 without any change in the labels, thus continuing the now meaningless 'Made by Rattray' and 'Made for Rattray' duality. Further, the country of origin for the German made Rattray was not included on the label (in the US only it was on a removable tab on the bottom of the tin).
Thus for Rattray tobaccos it is impossible to determine from the label alone who was the blender or when or where the tin was blended.
But if you largely disregard the label and look at the tin top and bottom you will do just fine:
*if the 'pop top' tin top is plain, the tin dates to the 1990's and was blended on the Continent;
*'if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made for Rattray" label Robert McConnell of England was the blender and the tin dates to the 1970's -1880s;
*if the 'pop top' tin top has text only opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray label it dates to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray of Scotland; and
*if the 'pop top' tin top has pictorial opening instructions and there is a "Made by Rattray" label the tin dates either to the 1970's and was blended by Rattray in Scotland, if it has a silver tinted bottom, or to the 1980's and was blended by McConnell in England, if the tin has a gold tinted bottom.
The problem with the last category of tins however, is that it is extremely difficult to determine whether you are looking at a silver or a gold tinted tin bottom unless you have one of the other for comparison (and do not believe any one that tells you they can do it without a comparison tin). For comparison purposes you can safely use either a Rattray's 'pop top' with text only instructions on the top, which tin will only have a silver bottom or, more readily findable, a tin with pictorial instructions on the top and a 'made for Rattray' label, which tin will only have a gold bottom.
*Plain top (either a "for" or "by" label & either a gold or silver bottom) ---------------- Europe/'90s
*Picture top / gold bottom / "by" label ------------------------- England (McConnell)/'80s
*Picture top / gold bottom / "for" label ----------------- England (McConnell)/'70s - '80s
*Picture top / silver bottom / "by" label ---------------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s
*Text only top / silver bottom / "by" label ----------------------- Scotland (Rattray) /'70s.
Back to Loring's articles [https://pipedia.org/wiki/Dunhill#John_C._Loring_Articles '''here''']




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[[Category:Dunhill]]
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[[User:Yang|Yang]] ([[User talk:Yang|talk]]) 08:20, 14 August 2019 (CDT)
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